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Editoral: ETC around the globe – YTTH presents the unbeatable force

I am pretty sure most of our readers have a rough idea of what “Yes the truth hurts” is and if not, for your own amusement you should go ahead and visit the blog. It often makes for a fun read and most certainly keeps new ideas coming, although admittely, most of them are pretty bad when it comes to strategy and army composition. Lets say it is just the way he (Stelek) roles – and wins at his local gaming club.

With the ETC hype taking grip of the general 40k public in the US, Stelek obviously couldnt resist to rip apart each and every ETC army list sent to him and make a mockery of the general setups preferred by most European countries. A fair criticism of ETC rosters could have been quite enligthening, to be honest. Too bad Stelek had to stick with his usual “you fail, because you fail” sort of argument. After the second set of critiques, I stopped bothering with his ramblings, something I usually dont do, even if I disagree with what has been said. But this was just too poor.

Now YTTH has come up with a fair try to design a strategy, in correspondence with the rules of the ETC, that would lead to victory only by its ingenious composition of armies. That is something worth looking at I guess.

To sum up the rough idea, Stelek prefers having an all mech composition of 8 mostly identical army lists, that make the most out of a combination of transports and units (with special weapons) and a large shooty component. His favourite 8 armies consist of Marine based armies: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar, Dark Angels and Imperial Guard based armies: Imperial Guard, Demonhunters and Sisters of Battle. Fair enough. One can imagine how to create pretty exchangable rosters for these armies, only that some work better (SM, BA, IG) and some are worse (DA, DH).

To understand what the plan with this setup is, lets quote Stelek:

This means you have 8 MSU shooty mech builds, as identical as you can make them across Codices, giving you a much more solid build for your team.

Your choice is then reduced to:

MSU shooty mech. Pick the flavor, and let’s go.

It greatly reduces the magic card deck concept of ETC, to the point where it’s a pointless exercise for teams not following this generalization/amorphization strategy, the anti-box for this tournament, but if you feel you have an advantage you can, of course, select one of your own armored variants to slap a particular army around with.

Balanced lists can be had from each of these combinations, and balance trumps all.

Especially MSU shooty mech.

So I hope you are paying attention, I fully grasp your entire tournament system.

Alright. Lets get things straight now, although this might get a bit complicated. His general idea is, albeit not phrased very clearly, to overload the enemy team with a repeated configuration of armies, to which, in the end, your enemy will not have answers anymore. I have to admit, he did indeed understand the concept of a team tournament faster than you would normally expect, given the fact he himself has probably never even thought about the idea of a team tournament before. Kudos to you, Stelek.

His idea is pretty straightforward. Would it work? I dont think so. There are a number of incoherencies in his though process. Lets pick it apart.

1. His idea is from 2007.

First and foremost, the idea of massing up on a particular build is pretty old itself within the evolution of the ETC army setups. Basically, after the first edition, everybody had understood that there is a need to arrange your overall setup in a way to create a pairing advantage which reaches further than just having a counter to certain popular armies such as, at that time, Iron Warriors. Now, the second step in this though process was that an overload on a particular aspect (Stelek overloads on balanced mech forces) will devoid the enemy captain of proper counters pretty fast. But really, how hard is it to face a balanced shooty mech force, a balanced demon hunter or dark angel mech force on top? It is not too frightening at all. So having no counter to a balanced mech force does not lead to having proper matchups on Steleks side, rather, it makes for a number of  balanced mech forces getting hard-countered and a number of overall balanced matchups. This equals a loss in my book. Fortunately, European gamers were smarter than that and developed the idea of overloading on unbalanced forces. Unbalanced forces are much harder to counter, keeping in mind that 40k indeed is a game of rock-paper-scissors (although some ppl seemingly still deny that). So with the second edition of the ETC, countries came up with the idea of having some 6 armies with multiple – around 4 or 5 – landraiders (that being only one possible example). At first glance, this seems awkward. But in a team tournament, there will only be so many counters to landraider armies in your own setup. Once tau and dark eldar are gone (no Imps at that time), you start to sweat. So in the end, Stelek had the right idea, only his execution was poor. Too bad his idea still is pretty much 2007…

2.His choice of strategy is poor

Since then, frankly, the more whitty countries started to understand that only having an overload of a particular style will not win you the tournament because your design might result in having a couple of good pairings for you, which you might win 13:7 (be honest, 4 landraiders does not really KILL the enemy, even if he has no darklances), but in the end you might also loose a couple of games 1:19 or even 0:20 (because darklances or railguns WILL kill your landraider army). So after the counting is done, you still are not ahead because compensating a number of high losses is VERY hard in a team tournament when you setup does not include “killer” armies with a massacre potential. In the end, overload setups are not possible with killer armies, but only with fairly standard builds, such as a balanced mech force. Massacre type armies most often are one of a kind, not to be replicated with a different codex book. After all, overload of any kind thus only gets you so far because the overall power of your rosters declines.

3. Balanced lists are poor in general

The latest step of this evolution can be witnessed over the last and this years edition of the ETC: People have now understood that are more suitable composition of armies contains a high number of rosters that will, ceteris paribus, kill a particular type of army reliably, that is: very specialised rosters. In addition, the balanced force has left the stage almost entirely. So, taking a look at for example the lists of team Sweden, you might be surprised to see a number of roster not too suitable for “normal” 40k play on a single player basis, because they run into VERY hard counters every once in a while (20 bike-nobs, 20 bike-locks etc.). But lets look at what would happen if Steleks balanced forces would clash with Swedens unbalanced, very one sided builds. Without going into detail too much, it is very easy to comprehend that 20 Nobs on bikes WILL kill a balanced demon hunter mech force. The same is true for around 6 of the overall Swedish army lists compared to balanced marine/IG mech forces. Their specialisation will ensure that the certain aspect they are concentrating on is developed to such an extend that an allround army will find itself unable to cope with it. It will simply have around 50-70% of its army not contributing to the fight, because a rhino with 2 meltaguns ISTs does jack shit to lets say 180 foot orks. The couble of countermeasures (heavy bolters or CC counters for orks) available to a balanced army will be unable to cope with a whole enemy army crushing in on them. That is why 40k is a game of rock-paper-scissors. Balance will help you against balanced forces, but it will lead to defeat against specialised opponents (and it doesnt even matter what their specialty is). So “balance trumps all” might work if you are more skilled than the other player, but on an equal footing, it simply is nonsense.

For this kind of unbalanced setup, you obvisouly need to be very clever at arranging the pairings, but with a good preparation, this sort of “aggressive” countering all through the board instead of a defensive overload on a particular asepct will allow you to win on the overall score.

4.ETC uses los-blocking terrain

Lets take a last aspect into account, considering Steleks love for mech armies. From my point of view, the surge of mech armies in the US has very much to do with the terrain they are playing on – which is close to none. In Germany, the same mechanisms applied and made IG and shooty marines very popular. Altough we dont play desert combat only, we dont have a lot of big los-blocking terrain either. The situation is different at the ETC. Respecting the wishes of countries that are used to play with a LOT more los-blocking terrain, the ETC organisation tries to ensure that at least the criteria from the rulebook are matched in terms of terrain coverage. Plus, at the ETC there are always differences between the individual tables in terms of density and design of the terrain, leading to some city-fightish tables, a number of well covered tables and some more open tables. In consequence, a high number of shooty mech armies will not only be unable to use the terrain to their advantage (vehicles dont benefit from cover as much as footsloggers do) but they will also find themselves overwhelmed by aggressive armies approaching in the cover of los-blocking terrain (and even more so on cityfight). How much help is a predator with lascanons when it is only offerend one round of shooting before people are in his face? Taken together, balanced mech lists seem even more of a road to failure than any other composition.

Around a year ago, during the preparations for the last ETC, I invited Stelek to arrange for a team from the US and to participate. He couldnt make it (does he visit bigger tournaments ever?). Maybe the truth would have been hurting too much anyway…

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Editoral: ETC around the globe - YTTH presents the unbeatable force, 8.5 out of 10 based on 48 ratings
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55 Comments

  1. Argh… this was me, JD… Vladdi is simply just damn right! :)

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  2. Vladdi is simply just damn right. :D

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  3. The problem with theory is that it’s only good when proven. I have proven mine by Polish ETC results from last 3 years. But just for the sake of disussion:

    Oblitwing with LR’s can handle any list. 10 vehicles easily, especially when they have effective fire range of 12″.

    Hiding in the corner IS THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO AGAINST DEMONS. That’s exactly how field control works. You hide in the corner, suffer few turns of demons assault, even kill them all but loose on objectives or Kps as single crusher charge on vehicles bunker can take out more Kps demons will loose during whole battle. There usually is simply not enough time after you defended yourself against demons onlaught to retake the field and obj. Corner bunker is a rookie mistake against demons. On the other hand there are other more effective tactics against demons(and so I think demons and not the best choice fot etc).

    You obviously miss a point with IG pairings. My point was it’s a R/S/P game because you can field mech shooty list, but I can counter it with mech guard, which is always more shooty, but if you field IG first, I’ll counter it with a list designed to kill IG (Tau for example). Of course it’s a game in itself – to outsmart your opponent, to get best pairings possible. When I get to put forward a list our places change – I have to give a list that should take anything you have left on hand, and You have to counter me with something my list will suffer from.

    And of course overload lists will not “always” score 20-0, look at my previous post more carefully. It’s not about automatic 20-0, but about improving chances of getting that result.

    About the list you posted, I didnt go through them all, stopped at immo spam and Sm, after that decided it’s a waste of time. Those list lack in long and medium range firepower (or base it on single-shot units), are mostly effective at 12″ or even less and have little to offer in hth. SM is barely acceptable, Immo spam sucks hard. A few well placed charges by fast overloaded units shreds those armies to bits. Tiny bits. If i’d see such an army put forward at the ETC I’ll be glad as it’s doomed to die badly at the hands of specialised list.

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  4. Dual Lash can not handle 10+ vehicles. The example you gave only has 5 long range units. With ONLY 2 melta units. It is not balanced to handle an overload of mechanised targets. The Obliterators will be outshot by almost any list and the Terminators can be delayed with blocking their rides. If they deep strike then they become like everything else with melta (Dreads, Fire Dragons, Vulkan marines)… shot off the field in a turn.

    I know there isn’t any ETC list with 180 Orks. It was an example Braindead used in his editorial. And hardly any of the ETC Ork lists have decent shooting (Codex lacks shooting in general). Some have a single squad of Lootas or some warbuggies. They will not last very long when they are on the top of target priority.

    Why would I want to charge daemons and why would I be running? Deploy in a castle formation on one corner.

    And I know there is nothing more shooty than Imperial Guard. And I love how you just assume you get the pairing in your favour. What is stopping the other team from pairing your Imperial Guard team with Tau or Eldar Seer Council?

    SoB Immolator Spam doesn’t aim on getting into close combat in the early phase of the game. This is John’s blog – http://www.threeplussave.com/ – ask him how he plays his list.

    In your three years of participating in the ETC have you played against a fully optimised balanced all-comer list using 5th Edition rules? Because according to Braindead the last time a team tried it was back in 4th Edition.

    I understand the way Overload lists work in the tournament. I believe TKE, from North Ireland, has got a good idea with taking a single rock, paper and scissors list while the rest are balanced.

    What I’m trying to show is that an Overload list will not always result in a 20:0 against a balanced all comers list. And I don’t believe that balanced all-comer lists will always be able to get the 20:0.

    And I won’t take it personal regarding your analysis of the lists I linked to. So please explain why you believe the lists are bad/weak.

    Messanger

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  5. „But please tell me how Dual Lash will handle a wall of steel when it is built to kill infantry?”

    Since when it’s built to kill infantry? It’s built to kill almost anything. Man, You really don’t see it? Let’s stick to examples, Lash army (Germany)

    2 x Lash
    2 x 3 termits 3 x melta
    2,3,3 Oblit’s
    2 LR
    2 x 5 CSM

    No way to handle wall of steel You say? It’s only me or are there 12 lacannons and 6 meltas in this? Not even mentioning two MC on wings.

    „How will 180 Orks open up 10+ vehicles while trying to minimise all of the heavy flamer and small blast templates?”

    There’s not a single 180 ork army at the ETC. What are you trying to prove here? That horde list in unbalanced? I agree! Even though most ETC horde lists have rokits (boyz), kanz, buggies or lootas to kill vehicles.

    „How will Daemons survive with minimal anti-tank (e.g. 2 Bolt Throwers)?”

    Field control. You cant charge them as counter charge will maim you, you can shoot them but soon there’s nowhere to run and 14-16 crushers can soak a lot of firepower, and 8 chrushers charge easily destroys any vehicle without rear AV 14. They dont need much shooting, especially when they are targeted at SM/BA builds. Anyway if you’re trying to prove that demons are unbalanced (most of ETC ones at least) then I agree again! They’re not designed to kill all (for example eldar fast moving mech armies) but rather to win by field control with SM/BA and similar armies.

    „What happens when your opponent can put out a more shooty list than you (do you nerf yourself by taking the table with lots of LoS blocking terrain)?”

    Nothing more shooty then IG, and everyone has that. If you fielded IG though you get countered by dual council or tau build. Rock, scissors, paper. No escape from it.

    „But they are balanced so that they still have the tools to deal with anything”

    Are you fragging kidding? I will restrain myself from saying what I really think about the lists you posted links to. Most of them though are very, very weak. Exactly the list You can easily counter and table.

    „Heavy Flamers on 10 vehicles are great against anything on foot but they fail to open up vehicles. But when those vehicles are filled with squads carrying two melta-weapons things change.”

    No they doesnt. Most of fast-moving rush lists will open one or two transports you got, make a combined charge on your other vehicles and that transported unit(s) stay in HTH and maim you next turn as you usually have nothing to propose in close combat, and if you do it’s far to slow to react.

    „Autocannons on vehicles are great when it comes to firing a torrent of medium strength shots against light vehicles and heavy infantry. But they fail against a horde of troops or heavy vehicles. That is why you add in heavy bolters on every vehicle, plus Hunter Killer Missiles, plus 3 squads with three melta guns at BS 4.”

    Ok that’s simply too much of „behind the screen I’m so smart” theory for me for one day. Again I repeat, it’s killy builds that win rounds not balanced builds. You may theorize all you want, it cant change how it is. And I’m saying this supported by 3 ETC editions experience and not “I say so, so that’s how it is” preferable at YTTH..

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